#279983 - 24/04/2006 11:54
MacBook Pro 17"
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Released (announced) today. Ships in 1-2 weeks. This one has been too long in the waiting for way too many reasons. but now it's here and it looks like they've corrected some of the 15" model's configuration issues.
Firewire 800 is back. Even if you don't use "800" it can be used as a second firewire port. Extra ports are nice to have. And the most important "extra" port in my opinion is the addition of a 3rd USB port. Yay! While at a desk I always use a Microsoft Laser6000 Notebook mouse which takes up one port with its receiver. My flash drive is always in and out of the second port. That means when I want to toss a card reader in there I'm stuck. Or another flash drive to copy from one to the other for instance.
When I finish setting up my permanent office space I think I'll have a USB hub to minimize all the plugging, then I can keep a USB keyboard hooked up at all times. It's a bit of surprise Apple hasn't come out with a standard "dock" connector for their notebooks, what with the popularity of the iPod's dock accessories.
The specs are rounded out with 120GB 5400rpn drive standard, 1GB of memory, the return of an 8x DVD superdrive, 1680x1050 resolution and (can't forget) a 2.16GHz Intel Core Duo processor standard. US$2800 - the SAME price as the 15" model configured with a 2.16GHz processor. Yet the 15" has a smaller HD, slower optical drive, no FW800 and minus 1 USB port (in addition to its biggest difference, the display size).
I suspect Apple may be seeing higher desireability for the 15" form-factor and is keeping the price at this level as a sort of premium.
This G4 PowerBook I'm using now must be swapped out by the summer. I'm just having a hard time deciding if I go to 17" or the 15.4" Intel model.
Bruno
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#279984 - 24/04/2006 12:22
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Sweet. Now if they'd only split that single button (below the touchpad) into three (or two), I'd get one.
-ml
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#279985 - 24/04/2006 12:36
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Sweet. Now if they'd only split that single button (below the touchpad) into three (or two), I'd get one.
Yeah. It would be great if they did that. I'd even be okay something similar to the two "buttons" on the new mouse.
The resolution they've chosen is a bit odd though. I would have expected 1920x1200.
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#279986 - 24/04/2006 16:27
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
The resolution they've chosen is a bit odd though. I would have expected 1920x1200.
Dunno about that. My Dell widescreen LCDs (both 2005FPWs) are 1680x1050.
_________________________
-- roger
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#279987 - 24/04/2006 18:46
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Quote:
The resolution they've chosen is a bit odd though. I would have expected 1920x1200.
Dunno about that. My Dell widescreen LCDs (both 2005FPWs) are 1680x1050.
My VAIO has a 1920x1200 LCD.
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#279988 - 24/04/2006 18:56
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: tman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Mmmmm. Native HD. I certainly think about a 17" if it were HD. Aperture could certainly make great use of it.
Matthew
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#279989 - 24/04/2006 19:10
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The resolution they've chosen is a bit odd though. I would have expected 1920x1200.
Dunno about that. My Dell widescreen LCDs (both 2005FPWs) are 1680x1050.
My VAIO has a 1920x1200 LCD.
Ditto for my (year-old) Dell Inspiron 9300. But I think Apple is simply aiming for the same DPI (or close enough) across all displays in their product line. Doing that makes sense, as it elimates font / icon / image size inconsistencies and the like.
Cheers
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#279990 - 24/04/2006 19:25
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
But I think Apple is simply aiming for the same DPI (or close enough) across all displays in their product line. Doing that makes sense, as it elimates font / icon / image size inconsistencies and the like.
Good point. Windows is nasty when you start altering the DPI.
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#279991 - 24/04/2006 19:35
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: tman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Right. But their API is supposed to be able to scale things. Of course, it doesn't work well in practice, so they've never sold anything but their standard 72dpi or whatever it is, with the exception of the nasty big iBook with the xga screen.
If leopard doesn't support some higher resolution screens I'm not going to be a happy camper. Digital photography on a low res 15" powerbook just isn't practical. The 24" monitor at home is good, but I can buy a G5 for a lot less than a powerbook.
Matthew
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#279992 - 24/04/2006 19:41
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
If leopard doesn't support some higher resolution screens I'm not going to be a happy camper.
Well, OS-X 10.4.6 is on my G3 here, and it has no issues with any resolution I want to select for the external (non-Apple) monitor, up to the max native 1600x1200 of the monitor.
Cheers
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#279993 - 24/04/2006 19:58
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: mlord]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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I should have been more clear. If leopard doesn't support some higher dpi screens I'm not going to be a happy camper.
Saying that "people can only comfortably see things at 72dpi, so that's as high a dpi as we sell" is complete BS, and based solely on the fact that everything being displayed was created for a 72dpi screen. One of the things apple has done well is told people what they needed even if they didn't want it - e.g. firewire and USB.
Matthew
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#279994 - 24/04/2006 21:36
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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People who thought they didn't want USB were retards.
I'm less emphatic about FireWire, but not much.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#279995 - 24/04/2006 22:28
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
If leopard doesn't support some higher dpi screens
My external 1600x1200 display uses 100dpi, which I think is more dense than the usual Apple displays.. That;s the display that works fine on my G3/Tiger.
Cheers
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#279996 - 24/04/2006 22:36
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: mlord]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Right, but that only gets you so far when you want to buy an apple laptop.
Matthew
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#279997 - 24/04/2006 22:44
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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AAhhhh.. Yes. I was thinking you were looking at external monitors, rather than just the built-in screens. Speaking of which, the new notebook seems to have built-in dual-link DVI.
Cheers
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#279998 - 24/04/2006 22:47
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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The APIs are in place as of 10.4 to scale things properly, meaning it will be a 10.5 feature most likely. Also, Apple's displays have been around 100dpi for a while, with the MacBooks moving closer to 110. There was rumors of a "PowerBook HD" around the last G4 revision, due to Apple documentation talking about a higher resolution screen option of 1920x1200. For whatever reason it was pulled, and aparently didn't make it back for the 17 inch MacBook.
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#279999 - 24/04/2006 23:00
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: mlord]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
Speaking of which, the new notebook seems to have built-in dual-link DVI.
It's actually been an option for over a year now, standard in the last powerbook revision. I've had the pleasure of hooking my powerbook up to a 30" monitor at work, and it's certainly a nice workspace. Unfortunatly the project was successful and said monitor was ripped from my clutches and was mounted on the wall.
Matthew
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#280001 - 25/04/2006 02:02
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: gbeer]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Mixed feelings, Eh!
Quite mixed. It's actually been a great project. This thread was at the begining of it. I work at the International House at UC Berkeley, and the idea was that a donor wanted to create a display to get students interested in news and newspapers, by displaying the front pages of many newspapers as conversation pieces. He had approached two other departments on campus, who had told him such a thing couldn't be done. The project got passed down the ranks and eventually reached me, and I said I thought I could, give me a day to research it.
By combining ghostscript and imagemagick and PDFs from the Newseum, I convinced myself such a thing could be done, said "sure, give me a week and a 24" monitor, and I'll give you a prototype. The donor liked the protootype, and we suggested 30" displays instead of the 24", as you can't actually read the print on the 24" monitor.
A lot of cash later, we've got three Dell 30" monitors mounted on the wall in our cafe displaying over 100 newspapers daily from around the world.
Unfortunatly, the G5 and the three 30" displays filled out my work area nicely, and I was sad to see them go. I have said that I'd need a prototype system if they want any major changes made to the code, but I don't think they're going to go for it.
Matthew
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#280002 - 25/04/2006 02:16
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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They've tested 1920 screens a number of times, including on the Macbook as of last December. Shhh, don't tell anyone I said that. I'm not surprised they introduced it at the current resolution, but I'd be very surprised if they don't release a higher resolution option sometime this year.
The API you're talking about is for resolution independent interfaces all around, it goes way beyond just changing a few default font sizes, so it's going to be a huge change. It's more involved than the DPI preference found in Windows - which didn't have a great track record IMO (I used to use it set to "Large Fonts" which is 120% or so and a lot of stuff would break with it).
The lack of user-based controls for these settings in Mac OS may very well be a reason for not having yet released the higher density display. But that doesn't mean Apple has been stuck at 72DPI. They've changed densities on a number of displays more than once before., including the 23" Cinema and pretty much all their notebooks.
Bruno
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#280003 - 25/04/2006 02:21
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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If you don't need to press both buttons at the same time, you can use simple software to give you a solution for button #2. IMO, it's handier than a physical button (in practise). I just put two fingers down on the pad and click the single mouse button when I want to do RMB click.
The pad also supports tapping, so I'm quite sure you could map the mouse button as #2 and leave the pad tap as #1 if you wanted to (will require 3rd party util).
BTW, a big problem (again, IMO) with their current "Mighty" mouse is that you have to lift your index finger off the mouse before you can use the other button.
I find Apple's track pad and single button a lot faster, more comfortable and way more accurate than any I have used on a Compaq, Toshiba, Dell and IBM.
Bruno
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#280004 - 25/04/2006 04:39
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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The problem isn't the ability to mimic a two button mouse -- the problem is the ability to mimic a *three* button mouse. Standard Unix/Linux behaviour on a three button mouse is left mouse to select/click, middle mouse to paste, and right mouse to... well... whatever the right mouse does (context sensitive menus, I think). With a two button mouse, you can emulate the third button by pressing both buttons together -- much like the way you're emulating a two button mouse via a tap/press+button click. I'm with Mark -- I want more buttons on the track-pad. If I had the right expertise, I'd start a company whose primary service is modding apple laptops to have multiple buttons. 
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#280005 - 25/04/2006 08:03
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Good point. Windows is nasty when you start altering the DPI.
Supposedly, this is fixed in Vista, but I've not managed to install it yet (no drivers for my RAID chipset), so I've not checked.
_________________________
-- roger
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#280006 - 25/04/2006 08:47
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
The API you're talking about is for resolution independent interfaces all around, it goes way beyond just changing a few default font sizes, so it's going to be a huge change. It's more involved than the DPI preference found in Windows - which didn't have a great track record IMO (I used to use it set to "Large Fonts" which is 120% or so and a lot of stuff would break with it).
There is a tool to change the DPI setting of the UI. I think it was part of CHUD or Xcode. I remember playing about with it when I first installed Tiger but it didn't really work properly as some things were resized and other things weren't.
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#280007 - 25/04/2006 13:08
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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whatever the right mouse does
The historical answer is "extend the selection", but it honestly never worked very well and has mostly been replaced with a variety of other things.
Of course, in some older widget sets, left-click/right-click on the scroll bar was page up and page down and you had to middle-click to drag. Hard to get used to, but handy.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#280008 - 25/04/2006 18:30
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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You can probably find a use for four or five buttons on a trackpad. But they're largely not terribly useful. Apple would have to do something with the buttons that other companies aren't doing for it to be a great solution. Unfortunately I'm not a big fan of Apple's input device design - every mouse they've ever designed (they don't actually make anything) sucked. Big time.
If they added a second button the current trackpad design simply by making a slit down the middle that would probably work out ok. I'd likely assign them both to do the same thing and continue using the two-finger-touch method though. It's still faster than having to reach over to the right side of the button when your finger is on the right side of the pad.
As far as Linux goes, that's an OS for running server applications. I have no desire to ever run it on a desktop/workstation machine.
Bruno
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#280009 - 25/04/2006 18:43
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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As far as Linux goes, that's an OS for running server applications.
Flamebait.
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I have no desire to ever run it on a desktop/workstation machine.
Good!
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#280010 - 25/04/2006 21:29
Re: MacBook Pro 17"
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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It's somewhat of a compliment actually. I'd not want to run any type of server under Windows. I'd live with Mac OS, but the hardware price just doesn't make economical sense for the purpose or running most types of servers - seeing as I don't really have any "free" hardware, that's a concern for me.
Why I wouldn't run it as a desktop? Mac OS comes "free" with every Mac. Linux doesn't offer me any software that I need to run. But it does offer a somewhat inconsistent user interface regardless of what gui kit is used, and it required a hell of a lot more manual setup and tweaking. Something I'm totally not interested in for a desktop machine.
For me, right now it's Mac OS on the desktop and to do work in. Linux on every server I have to run multi-user databases or serve web content from. Windows for a PVR purposes and to run just a very small number of applications like Textpad (this last thing will be through virtualization on a Mac OS machine). I'd also choose linux for any type of embedded solution right now. But I just don't see myself ever using it as a general purpose/work OS.
Bruno
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